HTML5, Flash and RIAs: 18 Industry Experts Have Their Say

HTML5, Flash and RIAs: 18 Industry Experts Have Their Say

on Oct 15th 2011 with 69 comments

Twice a month, we revisit some of our best posts from throughout the history of Activetuts+. This week’s retro-Active post as originally posted on the 8th of November, 2010; since then we’ve seen Microsoft announce that Windows 8 will support HTML5 for native apps, Adobe move further and further into the mobile area, and the release of HTML5 multimedia tools such as Edge. Things are certainly different – how have the experts’ predictions held up?

The subject of Flash, HTML5, Silverlight, RIAs and all that surrounds them continues to be debated across the net. It’s a sensitive issue as we’ve discovered; our recent roundup post certainly opened a can of worms and touched a raw nerve with a few folk!

Today, we’re going to put that behind us and approach the discussion in a more sensible fashion. Read on to see what some of the most respected members of our community have to say on the matter.

The Contributors

A huge thanks to everyone who gave up their time in contributing to this article. We’ve collected commentary from Authors, Designers, Developers, UI & UX Architects, Evangelists and Community Experts from all sides of the fence. Here they are, in no particular order.

Jump to any Section of this page quickly by following a link below:

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Alan Klement
Powerflasher Developer

We are expected to be innovators and that means pushing ourselves outside of our comfort zones from time to time.

Lately, it seems cooler heads are slowly prevailing when it comes to the “HTML5 vs Flash” debate. The consensus is shifting toward choosing “the right tool for the right job” and that is how it should be for everyone. We’re all craftsmen and professionals – not tool-smiths and laborers. Perhaps the most fun, and most intimidating, part of our job as creators is to be willing to explore new and better ways of engaging those who enjoy what we create. Does a painter use only one brush or a dentist use only a drill?

We are expected to be innovators and that means pushing ourselves outside of our comfort zones from time to time. The question to ask yourself is, ‘Am I choosing the best tool that fits the project’s needs?

Alan Klement
web: http://blog.alanklement.com
twitter: @alanklement

Keith Peters
Flash/ActionScript Developer, Author & Speaker

You fear what you don’t understand. The more you learn, the less you fear.

I think the whole argument of technology X vs. technology Y is stupid and childish and anyone who gets all defensive about their technology – or offensive about some other technology – is mainly showing off their own lack of confidence or certainty in their own future. I know Flash very well. I can do Flex. I can code up just about anything on the iPhone. I’ve dabbled in Android. I’m currently learning Silverlight and XNA for Windows Phone 7 development. You fear what you don’t understand. The more you learn, the less you fear.

HTML and JavaScript can currently do many things that you really needed Flash for years ago. That will only grow. I think the ideal of being able to do more things without relying on third party plugins is a good thing. But we are a long way from getting rid of them altogether. That said, I’d hate to have to do all my coding in JavaScript as it currently stands. While AS3 has a lot of room for improvement, it has grown a lot in the last decade. Coding in JS is like going back to AS1. If JavaScript looked more like AS3, I’d be a lot more interested in diving into HTML5.

Keith Peters
web: http://www.bit-101.com
twitter: @bit101

Bruce Lawson
Web Evangelist for Opera

A professional developer evaluates the client, the task and the audience and chooses the tool accordingly.

The big misconception is that it’s either HTML5 or Flash/Silverlight. Flash in particular is part of the Web’s ecosystem, and we’ll need to be able to render Flash content for ever. It would be a tragedy if future generations were not able to enjoy the Kenya song.

HTML5 even legalises the <embed> tag so adding plugin content to HTML5 pages can be done without making the page invalid.

Some HTML5 technologies can replace some uses of Flash: scripted graphics can be achieved using <canvas> for example, and interacting with videos through script is (arguably) easier to achieve using HTML5. It’s important, though, that we now have a choice; previously, for video or animations you were pretty much limited to plugins; now there is an open standards choice as well.

Some things can’t be as easily achieved in HTML5 as they can using plugins. AS I alluded to in my Five things that carrots can do that HTML5 can’t video, the choice of technology should be based on what you’re trying to achieve. A professional developer evaluates the client, the task and the audience and chooses the tool accordingly.

Bruce Lawson
blog: http://www.brucelawson.co.uk
buy my book: http://introducinghtml5.com
twitter: @brucel

Jonathan Campos
Director of Software Development at Dedo Inc. & Adobe Community Professional

Neither HTML5 nor Flash is without flaw.

As a previous Javascript application developer and current Flash application developer I have followed the arguments about HTML5 with a passing interest and little more. HTML5 will carve out room on the RIA landscape, but as with every piece of technology, HTML5 has it’s strengths and it’s weaknesses. A switch to HTML5 doesn’t ensure you will be free of bugs, performance issues, or testing. It just means you will be checking for bugs, optimizing performance, and testing on a different base language and with different tool sets. Neither HTML5 nor Flash is without flaw.

As a Javascript developer turned Flash developer, I can say from my own experience that you can do almost everything you could do in Flash in Javascript. However, it takes longer, is more difficult, and requires more testing on multiple browsers and environments.

Working with the Flash Player on large scale multitouch devices and multiscreen development, I can tell you that there are things we do now that HTML5 just can’t do yet. As such, we will continue to watch HTML5 grow but for us we are happy with the capabilities provided to us through the Flash Player and Adobe AIR.

Jonathan Campos
work: http://www.dedoinc.com
blog: http://www.unitedmindset.com/jonbcampos
twitter: @jonbcampos

Stray
Flash & AIR Programmer

Deciding the technology your users might want to use your site/app in is only the first step.

In the short term, I see HTML5 taking on Flash in creating over-designed ego-driven micro-sites. The clients we’ve been turning down on these projects for a couple of years don’t even bother us Flash devs anymore. They’re ruining the lives of HTML5 devs instead! Thanks Steve – we owe you for that one.

My little company mostly builds big Air apps – tuition and instruction for the engineering industry. These types of applications leverage the full power of flash development: a grown-up set of technologies and tools, and the incredible flexibility of the Flash timeline. This is Flash’s strength over HTML5 – audio, video, text, multilayer animation, interaction and the application they’re sitting in all playing together.

The other strength flash has is a mature tool set and some great frameworks and libraries. Increasingly generous open-source development is lifting the game of whole chunks of the community. A lot of us are really good at what we do and getting better every day.

Deciding the technology your users might want to use your site/app in is only the first step. Building real software is hard. And it’s different from building websites. The number of pathways through a really rich application or game is mind-blowing. Not blowing-our-own-minds building this stuff is what flash devs have become good at. We’ve learned through making a lot of mistakes – HTML5 devs haven’t had that opportunity yet.

I predict a lot of high-profile HTML5 project fails – anyone remember boo.com?

Stray
web: http://flair-flash-flex-air.blogspot.com
twitter: @stray_and_ruby

Tom Green
Flash Educationalist & Author

I truly see the browser as a doomed technology.

The jury is still out on whether HTML is a Flash-killer. Over the years, I have seen too many of these “emergent technologies” touted as the “App_Name_Goes_Here- killer” to get myself worked up about it.

I found it rather fascinating, though, to see a demo of an app during the “Sneaks” at Max this year that essentially recompiled a swf into an HTML5 file. Again, there is a lot of “perception” between demo and release (Macromedia/Adobe’s Fixation on on Flash Lite for Mobile a few years back, for example) to get myself too worked up. The implications of this sort of thing, though, are rather interesting.

The ability to cross-compile a swf to an HTML5 file gets Flash onto Apple’s devices without a lot of extra work and essentially gets Flash/Air/Flex projects driven by the Flash Player on to practically every device on the planet. Even then I truly see the “browser” as a doomed technology. We are undergoing a fundamental shift away from browser-based presentations to apps that don’t necessarily need to be delivered through an ethernet cable or viewed on a PC or laptop to be experienced.

The challenge around this multiscreen “environment” that just popped up is aimed more at designers than the codies. The codies quite rightfully claim they can “Write-Once/Deploy Everywhere” which is true because it is code and data. The danger in that is though it is true, it is also wrong. As I pointed out during a RIM Focus Group at Max when I asked this question: “Do you really think the app on your Blackberry Torch is going to look equally stunning on the 60″ inch Samsung monitor over there, my MacBook Pro, your Dell PC laptop and that guy’s Motorola?” What I was getting at is the real issue is a design issue because designers will have to play close attention to the Presentation layer than simply whipping something up in Flex. Think about it for a minute. Apps look great when they are on a screen roughly the size of a business card but you simply can’t expect that content to scale up in orders of magnitude without sacrificing quality or something else. I find it rather interesting that no one has started talking about this issue and I can pretty well guarantee it will come up later rather than sooner.

Tom Green
web: http://www.tomontheweb.ca
twitter: @TomGreen

Romin Irani
Software Developer

HTML5 lowers my barrier to start creating powerful browser applications today

I think the biggest misconception is to think in terms of “Flash is going to die” or “HTML5 is not going to succeed” and so on. Given the way the world works, neither of them are going to be clear winners or losers. Every developer knows that to create a compelling application to reach out to as wide an audience as possible, you need to cater to both sides. For e.g. you cannot assume that HTML5 will be present on all browsers, similarly you cannot assume that Flash will be present everywhere. You have to design for a fallback mechanism and that I believe is ingrained.

Flash is powerful. The graphics capabilities, the Charting support and its current reach is excellent. Where I think it stands out and will stay its ground today is not in features but two things:

  1. Plenty of excellent developer tools, IDEs that are available
  2. The huge developer ecosystem.

Both of these are well entrenched. HTML5 is still evolving, once it is finalized can one expect more tools.

In summary, HTML5 lowers my barrier to start creating powerful browser applications today. HTML, CSS and JS are all I need to get started. I am particularly excited by the set of Javascript APIs that come along with HTML5 i.e. Geolocation, Offline support, Storage, etc that allow me to address key architectural aspects in my application to make my browser apps more powerful. The other area I am waiting for wider acceptance is Web Sockets, that could be a game changer for a lot of gaming applications.

Romin Irani
blog: http://iromin.wordpress.com
check out: http://www.oreillynet.com
twitter: @iRomin

Joseph Labrecque
Senior Multimedia Application Developer & Adobe Education Leader

Why would anyone expect HTML, as a specification, to stand still?

Ever since the inception of this debate, I’ve held the position that the majority of dialogue around “HTML vs. Flash” is an intentional misrepresentation of facts and usage. There is no better example of this than Steve Jobs’ counterfactual letter, “Thoughts on Flash”; a message clearly designed to provide ignorant media outlets and technology zealots with cleverly crafted soundbytes used to encourage a position against Flash as a viable platform on the web and on devices.

HTML5 is the natural progression of the HTML specification. As such, it poses no threat to the Flash Platform because HTML and Flash have always existed as complimentary technologies. Why would anyone expect HTML, as a specification, to stand still? In my opinion, it has done so for far too long and is overdue an abundance of rich, new features. Does this in any way harm Flash as a platform? Of course not; Flash advances at a much faster rate than HTML, unrestrained by standards bodies and bickering between opposing corporations. The addition of capabilities with HTML only augments embedded Flash in the browser, as these new capabilities (geolocation data, for example) can be fed into a Flash interface through local connection or via initialization variables.

I actually find it humorous that the fate of Flash is called into question at this time of great advances. Flash Player 10.1 took a long time to emerge since a massive rewrite was required to allow a good experience across desktops, mobile devices, and eventually the digital living room. Now that this foundation has been set, we are seeing some startling growth across numerous areas of platform implementation. The beginnings of which can be seen in the upcoming 3D “Molehill” APIs, the super-performant StageVideo classes, the first glimpses of multi-threading, and upcoming 64-bit runtimes across Windows, Linux, and Mac OS. This doesn’t even consider advances in the AIR runtime and associated frameworks.

It’s a great time to be a Flash developer – and a great time for HTML too!

Joseph Labrecque
blog: http://inflagrantedelicto.memoryspiral.com
twitter: @JosephLabrecque

Rich Clark
User Interaction Designer & Creator of html5doctor.com

..it’s likely proprietary solutions will always be somewhat ahead of the curve when compared to open standards..

Both Adobe & Microsoft seem to be working towards embracing HTML5. Just look at IE9, it’s come on leaps and bounds from previous versions of the browser. If Adobe can get on board and develop a decent IDE for working with <canvas> and SVG then they’ll be onto a winner as well.

There’s maybe not been a shift [in disciplines where Flash is used] but there likely will be a shift in the not too distant future. I don’t think that there’s much doubt that Flash will continue to push the boundaries of what’s possible online. Companies like Adobe can afford innovate, improve and release new products more rapidly in comparison to an organisation like the W3C who have to work with implementers, authors and users while still maintaining backwards compatibility. That’s why it’s likely proprietary solutions will always be somewhat ahead of the curve when compared to open standards – it’s the nature of the beast.

Video & Audio are the main areas that HTML5 will start to outgrow Flash I imagine. In fact, some would have you believe that a large percentage of HTML5 _compatible_ video already exists.

Probably the biggest misconception is defining HTML5. It seems to be whatever you want it to be – that annoys me. Especially when people lump together CSS3, Web Fonts, SVG, etc all into HTML5. It would be preferable for people to use the phrase ‘Open Standards’ or similar but we’re probably too far down the line for that now. When you see daily newspapers using the term ‘HTML5′ you know it ain’t gonna happen ;)

[I'm looking forward to] the fact that the web will move away from the need for proprietary plugins (and associated software) that are replaced by Open Standards that anyone with a text editor can work with.

Rich Clark
web: http://richclarkdesign.com
twitter: @rich_clark

Jack Doyle
Founder of GreenSock Tweening Platform

..despite the hype around HTML5, Flash is doing great.

The HTML5 vs. Flash topic has become far too divisive. HTML5 is an evolving standard that promises some exciting capabilities, but it is most definitely not a Flash killer. HTML and Flash have always coexisted but I believe that 3 things are primarily responsible for the recent crusade against Flash: Apple’s refusal to support it in iOS, HTML5’s proposed <Video> tag, and CSS3’s animation capabilities. I’ve addressed each one in the full article on my site (cut here for brevity).

True craftsmen use different tools for different tasks. Developers are no different. Consider the objectives of each project and choose the appropriate technology. Don’t avoid Flash just because Steve Jobs insulted it or because it’s the trendy thing to do. And don’t use Flash just because it is what you’re comfortable with. I have seen plenty of sites which have been built 100% in Flash for no apparent reason. That’s absurd. Likewise, some developers burn through insane amounts of hours trying to accomplish something with HTML/CSS/JavaScript, making lots of compromises just to avoid Flash. Use Flash if it does the job better (and the reality is that Flash is far superior to HTML/CSS/JavaScript for certain tasks). Otherwise, stick with HTML/CSS/JavaScript which are more search engine friendly and accessible. HTML5 is another great tool for our toolbox, but it certainly doesn’t supplant Flash altogether.

For the Flash developers out there, the sky isn’t falling. In fact, despite the hype around HTML5, Flash is doing great. Better than ever. I firmly believe that it will continue to be a major player in web and mobile development. Adobe has got some great stuff up their sleeve too, so stay tuned.

For more thoughts check out Flash vs. HTML5: Faux Drama on my site.

Jack Doyle
web: http://blog.greensock.com
twitter: @tweenlite

Rich Tretola
Adobe Community Expert, Author & Speaker

The biggest misconception is that you can use HTML5 to do anything that can be done with Adobe Flash. At this point, this is not even close to true.

The rise of HTML5 is an exciting one as it will continue the transformation of the web to a much more rich and interactive experience. Although there is a perception that Adobe and Microsoft both have technologies that compete with HTML5, in my opinion Flash and Silverlight should be used to compliment and not compete with HTML5.

There’s certainly been a shift in disciplines where Flash is used; Apple’s decision not to include the Flash player on iOS (iPhone, iPad) has led to many companies reconsidering the use of Flash for creating content that can also be created with HTML. This decision is a simple one based on cost of development; by going with HTML5 over Flash, a single application can be created to target all major platforms.

Before Adobe MAX 2010, I would have argued that HTML5 is ideal for building rich web applications where Adobe Flex currently resides as a tool of choice for many developers. However, after seeing the Adobe sneak peeks and what Adobe has been able to accomplish in the conversion of Flash animation to traditional assets, CSS, and JavaScript it appears the sky is the limit for what can be transitioned to HTML5.

Since the Flash player will continue to evolve at a much faster pace than HTML5 (which has taken years and is still in progress), it will always offer more options for developers. I also believe that Apple will eventually agree to allow the Flash player on its iOS which will reverse the trend I mentioned earlier.

Eventually though, Flash and HTML5 will redefine their space in web development with each being used for what it does best. I look forward to the merging of these technologies into a collaborative development space which will ultimately continue to make the user experience a more interactive one.

Rich Tretola
web: http://blog.everythingflex.com
check out: http://twittapolls.com
twitter: @richtretola

Paul Neave
Interaction Designer

It’s not about the tools or the platform, it’s about the idea.

There’s no such battle as Flash vs HTML. It’s Flash and HTML. Flash is just one of the many tools in the toolbox, and like any tool it needs to be used in the right way for the right job. And it’s the role of the developer to decide which tool is appropriate.

The thing I love about Flash most is its cross-platform nature. But its major problem is that it’s a plug-in. It’s a closed off black box and not a native part of the web, despite what Adobe says when it refers to the “full web”. Flash is an augmentation; an extension to add features originally missing from HTML. There was a technological land grab and Flash got there first. But HTML/CSS/JavaScript is encroaching on Flash’s territory fast and within a year we’ll have a web that can do pretty much everything Flash can, if not more. Even 3D is coming to the web soon with WebGL. The only major thing lacking will be device support for webcams and microphones, but that’s on the roadmap.

So why on earth would anyone write code for a plug-in when the browser can handle it all natively? You could argue that Adobe’s tooling is better. But more often than not, this is when Flash developers get emotional and call JavaScript a “toy language”, and HTML/CSS a cesspool of hacks and incompatibility. But that isn’t true, and it certainly isn’t going to help.

The Flash work I do these days is mostly device specific rather than generic. Perhaps Flash is becoming less cross-platform and more niche. We now have more devices, browsers and operating systems to deal with than ever before. The good news is that Flash is not going to go away. Flash may become more niche, but it’s relevance will simply shift, not shrink.

To Flash developers I say: remember why you’re doing this. It’s not about the tools or the platform, it’s about the idea. Never stop creating, and never stop learning!

Paul Neave
web: http://www.neave.com
twitter: @neave

Rob Larsen
Interface Architect, Isobar

[I'm] excited by how far HTML5 has come over the past couple of years

Personally, I come at this from two angles. There’s the part of me that wants to expand the use of web standards wherever possible and wants to put those technologies to use early and often. That guy is excited by how far HTML5 has come over the past couple of years, with hundreds of developers working long hours to fill in the implementation gaps, allowing us to use some of the most exciting technologies, like Canvas, today. I’m working on a project right now that utilizes a Canvas charting component. That would have been Flash just a couple of years ago. That’s exciting.

There’s another part of me, the pragmatist, that realizes there’s a limit to what we SHOULD be doing with HTML5 right now, at least in a production environment and a limit to what we will be able to do in the future. I’m responsible to clients, co-workers and users to get the best site or application out the door as efficiently as possible. From that perspective, Flash is a powerful, mature option that I’d be silly to ignore.

Rob Larsen
web: http://htmlcssjavascript.com
twitter: @robreact

Kevin Suttle
Flash Platform User Experience Developer

We’re all working together towards the same goal: the best possible content experiences for our users.

When I first started in this industry, the tech tabloids hadn’t yet skewed it with terms like “technology wars” and other poorly-researched sensationalism. We just saw the web as a single, wide-open medium, and you know what? It still is.

HTML5/CSS3 is beginning to extend the web experience for many desktop and mobile browsers. The Flash Platform continues daily to push the limits of desktop applications, mobile devices, tablets, television, and hardware that doesn’t really fit in any one category. As both developers and users, we need to ignore the hype, use the right tool for the job, and remember that we’re all working together towards the same goal: the best possible content experiences for our users.

Kevin Suttle
web: http://kevinsuttle.com
twitter: @kevinSuttle

Mike Taulty
Microsoft UK

The reality is that Silverlight occupies a strong position even in a future world where every user has an HTML5 capable browser.

It’s common to see “HTML5″ browsers and RIA frameworks like Silverlight presented as an “either/or” choice with the success of one necessitating the hasty demise of the other. The reality is that Silverlight occupies a strong position even in a future world where every user has an “HTML5″ capable browser.

Silverlight applications can run both in and outside of the browser and offer elevated trust options. The runtime remains cross-browser (IE6,IE7,IE8,IE9, Safari, Chrome, FireFox) and cross-platform (Windows7,Vista,XP,OS X) where it provides a consistent experience. Silverlight also provides a framework for building apps for the new Windows Phone 7 devices to get re-use of code and skills.

Today, HTML based clients offer the greatest possibility of a client reaching across devices and platforms as HTML browsers are ubiquitous albeit with challenges around using a single set of markup in all browsers. Microsoft’s committed to web standards and is doing a tonne of work in IE9 around “HTML5″ to build a performant implementation in a clean, safe browser that does more to enable this idea of “one markup”.

As that works gets released and IE9 and other “HTML5″ browsers become the default over time, then developers will be able to take this reach approach across those new HTML5 features like video, audio, canvas, offline storage and so on.

However, there are still a rich set of capabilities that an “HTML5″ browser doesn’t have which show up in a framework like Silverlight and those sit in 3 main areas of premium media experiences, casual gaming and business applications. Applications need those kinds of capabilities even in an “HTML5″ world and Silverlight will take that forward, innovating at pace.

For more detailed information on the future of Silverlight – see this longer post from the Silverlight team.

Mike Taulty
blog: http://mtaulty.com
twitter: @mtaulty

Steve Fulton
8bitrocket

I’m looking forward to more great opportunities to make a good living from making cool stuff.

Adobe needs to make tools to create HTML5 content, that’s just obvious. I’d like to see the Flash IDE export both .swfs and HTML5/JavaScipt/Canvas. Obviously you would have to make concessions for what the HTML5 Canvas can support, but for things like ad units and animations with click-through it should be a no-brainer. Adobe’s reaction though has been a bit defensive, which I think is a mistake. Microsoft is embracing HTML5 in IE 9, but I’m still not sure how much they really believe in it. They have many enterprise customers, and the concept of using Visual Studio to build both your front and backend of the web site is very compelling for them.

From what I’ve seen, Adobe is taking Flash into the games market in a big way. There are things they showed at Max this year that would be extremely difficult to do in HTML5, and even if you could do them, they would only be supported by a very small subset of browsers. I would also look to Adobe focusing on Air as the delivery mechanism for content to multiple platforms.

Saying that, I do think HTML5 will take some ground from Flash. For example, content that is consumable by mobile devices where developers currently use Flash to develop only because there is no better alternative. Ad units, simple (and I do mean simple) audio and video players, drop-down navigation, animated overlays, etc. Flash will retain its position in the Games market and Air applications, Flex based apps, e-learning, and applications where the content and code needs to be secure for monetization.

Biggest misconceptions? Flash is dead. HTML5 sucks. Silverlight is lame. Hyperbole is the realm of the Steve Jobs in the world, developer’s don’t need it. We should think about how we can make use of any decent technology to solve problems.

Steve Fulton
web: http://www.8bitrocket.com
twitter: @8bitrocket

Remy Sharp
All Round Supporter of Make Believe Animals

Both Flash and HTML5 haters are going to be left behind, and frankly good riddance.

Both Flash and HTML5 haters are going to be left behind, and frankly good riddance. Flash for a long time has been plugging the holes in browsers for us via custom fonts, drawing APIs, SVG support, sockets, video and much more. HTML5 and related specs, for the most part formalises those technologies so that we don’t have to rely on plugins to play a video – and seriously how many flash developers think “Flash” amounts to being able to play a video?

The biggest misconception I run into is that HTML5 is this single silver bullet that will return the unicorns to the fields and the phoenix to the skies. It’s not. In fact the HTML5 specification is a collection of APIs (the HTML component aside), so it’s not the silver bullet, nor do we need browsers to support every single API before we start making use of just one of them, such as the canvas API, video or perhaps the history API. We should use the right technology for the job, and that’s still true if Flash is the right technology for the job.

Remy Sharp
web: http://remysharp.com
buy my book: http://introducinghtml5.com
twitter: @rem

James Whittaker
UI/UX Architect TweetDeck Inc. & Adobe Community Professional

I’m hoping that as developers and designers we have learnt from all the bad things that were done in the early days of Flash.

HTML5 and Flash. Both have really passionate communities surrounding them who actively promote and enjoy sharing code, techniques and solutions. The Flash Platform community is amazing and from personal experience many Flash and Flex dev’s are keen to get a more detailed understanding of HTML5 and JavaScript, they are always looking to learn new stuff, be challenged and see how it could fit into their workflow. Also, don’t forget that many people, including myself, love working with both technologies.

At TweetDeck our flagship desktop application is built using Adobe Flex and deployed cross platform using Adobe AIR. Adobe AIR was the best and fastest way to build consistent cross platform apps that integrated with the OS using either Flash or HTML. Our application is one of the largest distributed AIR apps in existence and we have really pushed what the platform can do and been amazed with the results.

We are also busy building an HTML5 version of TweetDeck for deployment as a web app using the Google Chrome Web Store. This will pack the same (if not more!) detailed feature set as the AIR client so it’s giving us a real sense of how these two technologies stack up against each other. For me, the new CSS3 animations and transitions have been really fun to try out.

Flash has been around for a long time. From animations to tacky skip intro screens it is now a credible platform for building enterprise level apps for desktop and mobile. HTML5 is still very new, I’m hoping that as developers and designers we have learnt from all the bad things that were done in the early days of Flash and don’t repeat them in HTML5.

Let’s stop arguing and get down to creating amazing experiences.

James Whittaker
blog: http://JamesWhittaker.com
work: http://www.TweetDeck.com
check out: http://RefreshingApps.com
twitter: @jmwhittaker

Your Turn

You’ve heard it from the horses’ mouths, now let’s see how you feel about what they’ve had to say. We want to hear your comments! Let’s try and keep this discussion civil though..

Remember, this roundup was originally posted in November, 2010. A lot can change in that time!

 
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Hi there! My name's Ian Yates. Amongst other things, I'm the Webdesigntuts+ editor and very proud to be so too. As editor, I am of course capable of writing a blindingly good bio for myself - so here goes: I'm British. And I edit this site. Don't forget to follow @envatowebdesignon Twitter.  

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  • InterFerence

    Yeah thats what I thought since the very beginning.
    Except of that Mike Taulty Microsoft guy, most will certainly agree, if they have a free mind.

    • http://mtaulty.com Mike

      More than happy to engage in some disagreement :-)

      Mike.

  • http://nvmind.com Ignacio

    I think Remy Sharp has a great point. Haters of both platforms will be left behind. There is no way a single technology can solve all your problems, you need options.
    Also, Keith Peters said something really interesting. AS3 has room for improvement however it is very well designed to do the appropriate job. Using JS right now to do all the complex animations would be far less practical then using AS3.

    • http://twitter.com/garbaczd David Garbacz

      Agreed. Javascript doesn’t have a timeline now does it :D

  • http://nemesisdesign.net/ Federico Capoano

    I think HTML5 is the future for what it regards websites. Flash and other adobe tools will be always here pushing the limits of other type of applications.

    But let’s get rid of full flash websites that can be done in HTML please. So annoying to go through intros, fade effects, reading small texts and so on. I still see many being launched every day.

    I wouldn’t want to go through to all these fancy effects again when css transitions and canvas will be fully implemented. It would be like going back again to the year 2000.

    There’s no reason to waste time arguing on HTML5 vs Flash or things like Flash is easier, HTML/CSS/Javascript is hard and so on. These are stupid arguments.

    • http://twitter.com/garbaczd David Garbacz

      It’s a really interesting point. In a sense, we might be traveling back to the Geocities (rest in peace) days where people are implementing things just because they can.

      It’s about picking what tool meets your needs best. If you can code something faster and more elegantly in Flash, what’s to stop you?

      • http://nemesisdesign.net/ Federico Capoano

        That depends just on your programming habit.

        If you find more confortable working with AS and Flash you’ll want to do it with those instruments.

        I find it more confortable doing it in HTML and JS. Doing it in HTML and JS doesn’t require to own a license, which is not bad at all considering is quite expensive.

        It’s important also to consider the accessibility and SEO parts of the project. If the stuff I need to develop needs to be accessible to everyone included search engines I surely won’t do it in flash.

  • Simon

    Excellent summaries. As everyone has said, the right tool for the right job is what it is all about. The needless bickering over which technology is better is reserved for the ignorant masses who don’t know any better.

  • http://www.blackbluebrown.com geoff brown

    very insightful. it’s great to hear what the pros have to say.

  • Michael

    An article where Flash guys are asked about Flash, brilliant!

    • http://snaptin.com Ian Yates
      Staff

      Not all Flash guys – there’s a decent spattering of HTML5 and Silverlight advocates too: Remy Sharp, Rick Clark, Bruce Lawson, Mike Taulty, Rob Larsen, Romin Irani.. You didn’t feel it was balanced?

    • http://abeall.com Aaron Beall

      You would prefer an article where non-Flash guys are asked about Flash? :)

    • http://inflagrantedelicto.memoryspiral.com/ Joseph Labrecque

      I’d bet that aside from myself, there are quite a few “Flash guys” that do a *lot* of HTML work as well!

      • http://twitter.com/reelfernandes reelfernandes

        Another Flash guy who does HTML/CSS/JS work. It’s great to see the API progress. It’s saddening to see them still plagued by cross browser inconsistencies. It’ll all come together eventually I’m certain, but we have work that needs to be done rapidly, toying with various browser implementations & API for such simple things as a shadow just isn’t exciting. I’ve never cared that Flash is a proprietary plugin, because the same can be said of the browser’s interpreting CSS/JS/HTML, and as long as it works well, responds to security quickly, and rapid innovation, that is really what matters. The only thing I’d care to see open with Flash Player is a channel for contributing code for Adobe review & possible implementation.

      • http://gamedev.rasmuswriedtlarsen.com Rasmus Wriedt Larsen

        For sure. Check out Mr. Doob for exmaple.

  • http://twitter.com/garbaczd David Garbacz

    Some very, very insightful words here and some good points I didn’t even consider when it comes to Flash and HTML5.

    I really enjoyed Stray’s comment of “I predict a lot of high-profile HTML5 project fails.” It’s the right and wrong implementations of HTML5 that’s going to separate developers and show elegant and creative implementations.

    The fact that AIR / Silverlight RIA’s can be pushed to mobile devices as well as run cross-platform all wrapped up in one neat little package, that’s kind of a huge force to reckon with.

    It’s not about pigeon-holing our skills and sinking our hopes and dreams into one technology or the other. We’re allowed a robust tool set and thank goodness.

    Great read and really great to hear from the experts.

  • HTML5

    I think most of this speeches tent to not listening to the market. Google, Facebook, and many other actors have declared openly that HTML5 is the technology that must prevail over slow flash animations and apps (memory crushes on browsers), I’ts all about performace and standards. To not listen to that, is like a man who thinks in hide the sun with one finger.

    • Tomas

      HTML5 is good in the long run. The problem is at the moment that it’s not consequent across browsers, in formats, and slower than Flash for complex things because you need javascript. Next year we can expect hardware-accerelated 3D in Flash, what can HTML5 compete with?

      • http://www.matthewfabb.com Matthew Fabb

        Well, there is the upcoming WebGL, however it’s still very experimental and is many, many years off to getting full support across browsers. We are likely to get hardware-accelerated 3D in Flash for years before WebGL starts talking hold.

    • http://www.matthewfabb.com Matthew Fabb

      Yet Google’s own YouTube has written that they will be keeping with Flash for their main video player for the near future, as HTML5 video tag still does not meet all their needs:
      http://apiblog.youtube.com/2010/06/flash-and-html5-tag.html
      Hulu, the BBC and other major video sites have also made similar comments online.

      Google continues to push hard for HTML5, but at the same time support Flash Player in Chrome, Android and GoogleTV and continues to use Flash for a number of their sites. You also mention Facebook, which is all HTML based, but many of it’s most popular games are all based around Flash. Different tools that each have their place, something that many above have been saying.

      • http://inflagrantedelicto.memoryspiral.com/ Joseph Labrecque

        Actually, Facebook has turned to Flash to support the new hi-res photos feature: http://www.facebook.com/blog.php?post=432670242130 They also use it to capture photos and video from users in posts.

  • http://twitter.com/ramirowebdev Ramiro

    I think that all technologies have it’s share market place.
    In my opinion the web should have 2 types of structure, one as the HTML like we all use it, for content, media… and the second structure should be something with focus on web systems, with a more easy and fast solution for interface (I don’t mean that Flex and Silverlight are bad, I actually use both of them), but something that rely simply for interface like desktop and maybe a little bit more control of keyboard events cross-browser, like the use of F1…F12, CTRL+…, SHIFT+… – I know that we can use events, but is not always like we want it to behave.

  • http://www.nuff-respec.com Daniel

    Basically, what technology I will use for a project, is totally dependent on the content, and the client. The chances of building a site in HTML has dramatically increased. But remember that HTML5 & CSS3 Support is not that great. And you will have to do allot of defensive coding.

    And just because you can use something, doesn’t mean that you should. http://www.nuff-respec.com/technology/html5-yes-you-can-but-should-you

  • Todd

    Somebody send this to Steve Jobs right now, please. :)

  • Joel Fiser

    Flash will remain relevant if-and-only-if Adobe can come up with new things for Flash to do that HTML5 cannot. Simple.

  • Gerardo

    I love this post. It’s always great to have a multi-perspective view on technology discord. Yes, please send this to Jobs. :)

  • http://www.mehmetdemirel.com Mehmet

    Good job guys.
    I think this is one of the best logical articles on the subject.

  • http://www.3ee.com Ryan

    While I rarely get involved with tool box wars, Flash fixes the font problem that the browsers bring. Flash can embed fonts so you don’t need a nasty text to image script.

    Fonts in Flash:

    1. Can embed fonts.

    2. Fonts look great, smooth, and many options to choose for rendering them (readability, animation)

    3. Looks the same on all browsers.

    Fonts in the browser:

    1. Limited choice (these choices are increases with the Google Font API)

    2. You can use any font with a text to image script however you can see a “flash” of the real font while the script does it thing.

    3. It’s hard to show a client a PSD comp of their site layout because the fonts look so great and yet the final outcome of their HTML site, the fonts look jaggy.

    • SBUK

      Wow. Just, wow.

      Responses to ‘Fonts in Flash’:

      1. @font-face. It’s not a ‘cure-all’ and font choice is still better in Flash, but this is selectable, fit’s the documents flow better and most importantly, it’s accessible.

      2. Font rendering is done at an OS level. (straw man)

      3. dowebsitesneedtolookexactlythesameineverybrowser.com (straw man)

      responses to ‘Fonts in the browser’:

      1. @font-face.

      2. Arguably much better than waiting for the site to download the Flash content. Also, it’s accessible.

      3. That’s just an excuse for not understanding how font-smoothing works on the part of the developer.

      Personally, I haven’t got anything against Flash per se; it’s just not the alternative to HTML/CSS that Ryan is making it out to be. I totally agree with the notion that Flash is a useful tool, but it is a tool that is often abused and there is very little reason to ever use Flash for an entire site.

      • http://otterball.com Otterball

        http://dowebsitesneedtolookexactlythesameineverybrowser.com/ is just a good excuse for bad css and design. You find me one CSS guy who’s happy that rounded corners don’t work in all browsers and I’ll listen to your argument. Otherwise.. lame.

        I think html has come along way in fonts recently, so I’d agree with you there. Though a small point, I’d argue that accessibility can be addressed in flash.

        For your response #2 I’d also argue that Flash content is not necessarily longer loading than HTML. Flash can reuse graphics better and easier than html with bitmap level scripting, 9-slice, 3D skewing, etc that would be difficult if not impossible to do without many more graphics in html. Additionally the elements are reduced to a single server request, which can help to reduce overall load time. YSlow for firefox can help explain that if you need more info. Preloaders on flash sites are also not necessary, but often used so I can see why you would assume you’d have to wait, but a flash site can be made to load as elements are available just like any HTML site.

  • http://www.bluelegos.com John

    There has been a site out there for a while called Blue Legos. It has been chronicling the debate of Flash vs Html5 and who wants it on any of the iOS devices.

  • Seth

    Flash vs. HTML5 seems a lot easier to rationalize than Flex vs. HTML as a browser based “Application” or a port of a previous .Net desktop application. Websites vs. Applications are easy to rationalize as well, Flex vs. HTML in that nasty browser based application space generates tons of confusion.

    It’s farily easy to develop dependent on the content, in a world where content is still emerging… the process still breaks down. It’s probably easier at that point to look for reference models and then stick with the tried and turn….

    HTML does well with content, Flash for light/recorded video and games… Silverlight for very active multi-threaded experience (does very will with HD streaming). And Flex used with AIR on the desktop and other platforms that don’t have the acessability/usability mandates that people that use a browser are familar with.

    Pick the platform, pick the toolset for the best suited for problem isn’t as easy as it seems… but then herd mentality pretty much follows what works and what doesn’t… stick with trying to find a few good real world references before making a decision… that’s always seemed to work for me.

  • babo_ya

    Mike Taulty, who works for Microsoft thanks for your unnecessary comment! Sliverlight is a trash!

    • http://michaeljameswilliams.com/ Michael Williams

      Good thing we have valuable comments like yours to offset it. Thanks so much! :)

    • http://mtaulty.com Mike

      There’s not much I can respond to in;

      “Silverlight is a trash!”

      other than to say “Silverlight is not a trash” and leave it at that ;-)

      Thanks,

      Mike.

  • http://www.webteh.ro Razvan

    Html5 is going from A to B directly , flash is like going from A to B through C and D.

  • Aristophrenia

    I come from a very different perspective – flash can do everything, and I mean everything that HTML 5 can do – and a whole lot better, not to mention it can do vastly more as well – so the real question that absolutely no one is asking is why are we still insisting on mono in a stereo world ?

    if I want a site with ext and images – nice and simple – I will build it in flash and it will be done in ten minutes – thats my tool set – thats flash. Way faster – way better.

    The arguments above – and from what I am constantly hearing is fence sitting at best.

    The vast majority of those who do not want flash – and this is the very core of the issue – are not good enough to code it and use it properly.

    Almost every single HTML5 advocate and developer I run into in my day to day life “studied a bit of flash at uni” blah blah but found it too hard.

    And thats the absolute truth – flash is far, far more complex than html5 – especially when you throw in complex gaming, 3d, streaming, peer to peer, Alchemy etc.

    NO doubt there are those that are capable – but seriously – the vast majority are way out of their league – and if people are honestly saying that html (javascript) developers are all of a sudden going to set the world on fire by competing with flash then you are kidding yourself – seriously having a lark.

    So the question really is – why wont HTML5 hurry up and die already ?

    Here we have a TEXT MARK UP LANGUAGE that is being moulded an bent to become an animation platform – I mean come one. Why wont anyone at least be honest about this.

    As for the comments regarding html5 video bing the choice of the future you have no idea about flash video .

    Finally with Cirrus (flash peer to peer) and Molehill (flash 3d api) you can say good bye to any question about flash – what you an say with all honesty is CAN APPLE SURVIVE WITHOUT FLASH ? I doubt it.

    Since flash is now going to seriously challenge not just UNity – but xbox, playstation, etc as the console of choice for moble and desktop gaming – what is apple going to do – release their own version ? sit back and say oh you cant have full 3D peer to peer net gaming because we dont like flash ?

    Lets have an honest convesation rather than this constant fence sitting and unbearable platitudes.

    The idea of scripting highly complex RIA web enabled media applications in html / javascript is a nightmare beyond Freddy – come one you knw its true – its only done as proof of concept and to appease Apple – in short – Apple is just costing business millions and driving us backwards to Hyper TExt Mark Up HELL!!

    • http://inflagrantedelicto.memoryspiral.com/ Joseph Labrecque

      When I read your dismissal of our published statements as “fence-sitting”, I’m just not sure how to respond.

      Are you saying that a developer can not or should not be capable of picking up many languages, environments, and platforms to work in? Sure, I freely admit that the Flash Platform is my favorite for a great many things, but I can also think of ten other languages that I use regularly, including HTML.

      One of the great things about this line of work is that we do have the ability to select from among a whole host of technologies for any given project. I would not want to be confined to just one. In fact, most Flash projects I am involved in use a whole bunch of other stuff alongside Flash to get the job done properly.

      I do hope you change your perspective in the future.

      • Aristophrenia

        Your missing the crux of the issue – this is a flash vs html5 debate – thats the entire point of this page.

        So lets get down to it – if we choose one – its flash. Simple. Why ? Because it can do everything html can do, can do it better and then a whooooooooooole lot more.

        My point is very simple – why is the debate ALWAYS one way – and I mean ALWAYS – html5 killing flash ?

        My remarks are centered around the premise that why is that it is never, ever put the other way around ? Why? Why is that we never hear the proposition that flash is death of html ? The answer is pure and simple – the entire fracas is from html developers – flash developers are simply spending their time defending the technology.

        Hence – my comments stand – it is quite obvious where this debate has come from (certainly NOT flash developers) and the obvious reaction is to reverse the argument.

        I use many, technologies as well – however the truth is most of these are used to meet the needs of the lowest common denominator.

        Server side languages aside – I find the argument of javascript, css and html element tags being a replacement for flash (which is what this is about) to be simply ridiculous.

        Yes there are a plethora of languages out there – from Lua to ‘whateva’ – and thats great, choice is great etc – but this argument, this post, this issue revolves purely around html5 vs flash – and thats why I think it is time that “industry” experts got off the fence and stopped merely defending flash and started really identifying the differences between the two techs and saying quite simply the reality of a text mark up language as a replacement for flash being absurd as it sounds.

        Brandon Hall appears to be the only one with any guts on the issue.

        I love flash – its an awesome piece of kit – really is – I will stand up for it as I see fit – and no I wont be changing my position.

        I have simply had enough of html coders finding random proof of concepts – which basically hardly work, or not ubiquitous, browser specific – or in some cases are even relying on flash – to demonstrate that flash is dead. When the truth is, which no one is saying, is that it is more relevant today than it has been in years.

        Once more – there is a raging debate out there which is ALREADY KILLING FLASH (thanks steve) and industry experts responding with their fondness of various technologies – which is almost a stock standard response line – does nothing to stand up and fight for flash.

        When the war goes away – I will be happy to let sleeping dogs lie – but while people are needlessly and erroneously attacking what is the best thing to happen to the web since the mouse – then I will stand up.

        lets not forget that the very same argument was put forward regarding TV and radio – it would be amazing to think that people genuinely put forward the argument that TV will die, stunning, yet that is exactly what happened. Now think if they had won. Radio is still with us – you will still have your html5, but lets be honest and simply place things in perspective. The argument that tv and radio are both good is fine and dandy – but right now we need people to stand up and say flash (tv) is great, awesome and radio advocates need to pipe down.

      • http://inflagrantedelicto.memoryspiral.com/ Joseph Labrecque

        @Aristophrenia – The point of this article was never “flash vs html5″ but rather statements by industry leaders around HTML5, Flash and RIAs. You are making this an either/or argument which was never the intention.

    • http://www.327creative.com Julie

      Your entire argument to kill HTML and build everything in Flash revolves around what you think is somehow “better” or “easier” for developers (and is supported by limited anecdotal “evidence” at best). Talk about missing the point… Where are the users in your rationale? Their needs should dictate your development decisions, not your personal opinion.

      • Aristphrenia

        Been building rich sites for ten years – developing professionally for 12 – nothing anecdotal.

        My argument are backed up by pure logic and industry experts – developing rich internet sites which compete with flash out of html, javascript and css is bone crunchingly difficult (well maybe not since adobe max with the new fla to html exporter – but hey its still flash) – and thats the point. Why advocate developing in something which is not as functional, is vastly more limited, is vastly harder to achieve and the results are vastly poorer (3d pixel bender anyone ?). Please why advocate that ?

        The argument that people enjoy using various technologies is an expression of interest in variation – an aversion to boredom. The agrument that html5 is a flash killer is something which needs to be addressed by pure comparison and side by side evaulation -and on that basis alone, that single reference which is being raised by HTML developers (and stevie BOIS) is easily shot to flames by reversing the argument. Hence my post.

        Finally the end users are my absolute focus – hence the comment regarding stereo vs mono. Why not build the best experience possible – and if are CHOOSING BETWEEN TECHNOLOGIES which is what this debate comes down to (besides the best efforts of industry experts to avoid actually dealing with what html5 advocates are pushing) then flash wins hands down – in every way shape and form. The only reasons I am seeing here for retaining html5 are developer interest (“i Like using various techs”) and nostalgia.

        The real truth is – its all going handset and tv – so where does html really stand in this future ? HTML TV ? Really ? Is that what end users want ? I don’t think so.

    • Tom Green

      Wow. You know, this very debate kicked off in 1998 and carried through to about 2001. At that time it was Director and Flash. The whole HTML 5 vs. Flash argument will resolve itself in the same way the last argument did: people will choose the best tool for the job and that is that.

    • Simon Oakey

      Thanks for this, really!

  • Brad

    Every time I stream a movie or TV episode from Netflix I think to myself, “I love you so much Silverlight.”

  • Jafar

    Is there anyone who knows Flash, but does not know HTML/CSS/Javascript?
    Let’s reverse that question now.
    Is there anyone who knows HTML/CSS/Javascript, but does not know Flash?

    As someone who uses all of it, I’m very excited for CSS3 because it will finally be able to do simple things like rounded corners, simple animations, etc. HTML5 will have web sockets, which is way cooler than video and audio tags. Javascript need to be hard typed because it’s easier to read other peoples code.

    I’ll keep my other comments to myself.

  • http://simurai.com simurai

    I’m excited about HTML5 and CSS3, but people that think it’s gonna solve all the problems that Flash has, just see the whole thing with rose glasses. It’s not just the technology itself. Any technology can get used wrongly. To demonstrate my point I made two demos.

    Bad performing HTML5 Ads: http://lab.simurai.com/html5/ads/
    And good performing Flash Ads: http://lab.simurai.com/html5/ads/flash.html

    So as you see, quite the opposite what “some people” constantly are pretending.

    • http://www.mehmetdemirel.com MEHMET

      Any technology can get used wrongly.

      Such a simple and logical idea but try explaining this to html people.

    • John Reyes

      excellent point! =)

  • Manoel dos Santos

    Simply this: There’s no tech to rule them all.

    The web is, and will certainly remain, mainly HTML. But even with the improvements of the HTML5 there’s still some needs that it doesn’t supply, like webcam recording, smooth streaming…

    And when you talk about business applications you can’t deny the productivity and resources of technologies like Silverlight.

  • Dru Kepple

    The biggest thing that bugs me about this debate is thatI don’t like divisiveness.  I’m a Mac-based Flash developer, but those are just my choices, and I have no problem with people who use Windows or develop HTML5 or whatever.  I DO have a problem with those who think that they can just make fun of people who have made choices that are different their choices.  Disagreement is fine.  Healthy, even.  But schismatic hostility is not.

    That’s the thing that really gets me.  Zealots.  And the funny thing is that the zealots all call “the other side” zealots, but never see themselves as zealots.  The world is a better place if we have choice.  It’s fine to make your own choice, but never stand in the way of someone else making their choice.  Can we just stop the hate?

    Kudos to the contributors, who all seem to agree that HTML5 has merely expanded the choices and refuse to fall into the zealot trap.

  • Clint

    I am not a developer of any kind (I used to play with flash back when it was still Macromedia though).

    I agree that in a perfect world, you should give your client the pros and cons of each technology, and make them make the choice (the more exciting experience of Flash vs. the accessibility (iPhone & iPad) of HTML) but as a digital director with a lot of contact with clients, my experience is that clients do not like to make educated choices – they want to be presented with solutions. And it is just a fact, that 9 out of 10 clients will say something like “I want to be able to see it on my iPhone” or “It must work on iPad” … and then there isn’t really much choice left when it comes to Flash.
    I agree that Flash is a very nice technology for many many things online, but when clients want their site on iPhone (and just after “I want an iPhone app” that is exactly what they want) Flash is not really an option.

    This is why Flash is struggling … not in a technical sense, but they are definitely loosing terrain on the market share and relevance scene. No amount of clever flash developers or great functionality in flash can change that the way I experience it when i talk to clients “in the field”

    • http://twitter.com/rajrindra Rin

      well if they need it on their iphone or ipad you can always build an Air app and deploy it on their devices.

    • Jake

      Clint,

      That is exactly right. I’m in the same position. Our clients usually don’t have time and don’t want to spend the time to make a truly informed decision. They here the buzz about Flash in the media, no matter how misinformed, it affects their perceptions. And sometimes they just want what they want, rational or not. We get it all the time, “it has to work on my ipad too”. It doesn’t seem to matter that the experience suffers, that the creative can’t be as expressive, that we’re catering to what often amounts to a smaller percentage of our audience than IE6 users, they want what they want.

      I really hate providing experiences that are less rich, sexy, and immersive than we can deliver because of the fragmented platform landscape, but at the end of the day, we have to get paid. We’re forced to make these compromises because HTML5/CSS3/JS can’t deliver consistently today and Apple won’t allow Flash in the browser.

  • http://underlabs.ca from a Montreal Software Developer

    hmmm… I don’t mind seeing a Flash (maybe even with Actionscript) exporting to SVG Canvas. I see it very probably. Between you and me, the problem with Flash and HTML5, is the Flash “Player” not being supported on Mobiles. At least not performant for the moment.

  • counsel

    Adobe is in a position where Apple was a few years after Jobs left the first time… Floundering. Instead of directing their future and product-line, Adobe is following the curve…exactly what Apple did after Jobs left.

    Adobe needed to support Flash and Flash developers and create a great site that showcased what Flash can do well (and stuff HTML5 can’t do at all). Yet, Adobe failed to market to what I call the “uneducated masses.” What Apple did was bring the uneducated masses into tech with the iPod and iPhone-some of those will become educated and want more. However, failing to show the majority why they need/should want your product is a huge missed opportunity. Furthermore, Adobe has now fragmented the Flash world by saying they are abandoning the mobile market but supporting the desktop–why would a dev want to have to develop for both with separate products? Perhaps they will move to AIR..perhaps not.

    I’d create sites (multiple) that created a demand for my product… However, the demand must be created to show the masses why they want it rather than just to support developers who already know of the product and what the product can accomplish.

    Focus on your product-make it better, make it more efficient, etc… Don’t let your opponents direct your path.

    Simply … amazing. This site is great, but I bet the masses don’t visit… Getting the word out does not mean getting the word out to those that already know. It frustrates me that “everyone knows” what flash can do when they really don’t.

    I wish Logic was required in high school and college–it seems everyone just makes emotional rants :)

    If I was Adobe, I’d drop the Apple platform and concentrate on other OSes. Imagine Macs, iPods, and iPhones not being able to access any AIR developed apps… As Android increases in popularity (requiring payments to MS or not), the Apple dominance in mobile will wain to some extent.

    Yet, Adobe is just giving devs a reason to switch platforms. Again, some will choose AIR–yet, some will not. Either way, they are losing market share.

    Perhaps they need to choose a better Chief Marketing Officer… Just saying…

    • Tina

      The only thing I can think about right now is that the Chief Marketing Officer came from Mac or has a close relationship with them.

      It’s like the world is depending on iPhone. Please, visit the current mobile OS stats.

      Adobe, Check your CMO’s background. PLEASE!!!!!

      - leaving Mobile Market?
      - pushing Mobiles to AIR?
      - Dumping Flex to Apache clan?
      - Disrespecting your own Flash/Flex by “putting HTML5 higher” IMHO?

      What is next? Maybe Creating IDE for Silverlight?

      Adobe, you have a lot of great products. What I can tell you is that you may not seen them on the web like you’ve expected, but many companies are using them internally and Flex/Flashbuilder maybe number one on the list and planning to expand their solutions on mobile phones. (before you’ve killed it)

  • http://stewartmilleronline.com Randy Miller

    I don’t see that big of a future for HTML5 myself, at least as the next version of ActionScript, because it is the same pipe dream HTML has always been. The pipe dream is kind of like socialism. It sounds nice on paper but when competitive markets come into play, it is not the friendly lets sing Kumba ya thing afterall. Which is the way it should be. Frankly, there is no reason for app markets to support open source (and rather functionally limited) ideas. The reason we love apps is not because they open a trillion websites like the world wide web does but because they limit our view to the task at hand. Limiting the task at hand (and making the task functional) requires a pretty good code set. In other words, we are no long in just the world wide web world where we have billions of bytes of information at our fingertips (which HTML is pretty good for) but we are in a world where we are also cutting out the excess and apps cut out the excess information. This type of eco-system actually hurts the previous web based world to some extent as shown in the following Gartner based video. It also hurts the fundementally (security) flawed idea of Google, Amazon cloud ideas. Cloud computing is little more than using someone elses server (i.e. Google, Amazon, etc.) See the evidence of this in the following article:

    http://gigaom.com/cloud/its-official-the-lapd-aint-going-to-google/

    Apps (whether for Android, iOS or RIM) are all about business productivity and productivity requires choosing the correct development model (not depending on a one size fits all HTML model – which is socialism). Socialism’s selling point is giving the masses all the same bland thing but making sure everyone is on board. This has never worked well in technology markets where wars break out regularly Blu-ray vs HD DVD for example) and niches are created. Silverlight and Adobe Flash are two examples where proprietary formats did better than the bland offering. Even then the bland offering [HTML] was not always supported the same way by the various marketed browsers. HTML has never acheieved its socialist goals from the beginning of the WWWC and there is sure to be back stabbing coming on HTML5 – just wait and see as companies that have all been for it turn on it in various ways as it effects their bottom line and positition within the market. Aodbe Flash, was like the original Coke, and just hit it well with developers and end users but that doesn’t stop Business managers from messing withe their own success by buying into the socialist ideas. There was a couple of years where Coke had to spend millions to stop a public backlash from their messing with the recipe. It is called bad management ideas and both HP and Adobe have had run ins with their own clientelle as of late by cocky management taking people by surprise or making public annoucements that are not well communicated or thought out. Adobe and Flash mobile was one area where Adobe went Coke for no reason other than to stir the pot apparently. The truth is that both HTML 5 and Flash are fine. Each has its place depending on the type of result needed and how the app is to be used. We are seeing a new type of network. It is the splinternet. Don’t be so paranoid about it. Will there be more winners and more losers? Yes, so what? The benefit will be the user and their task.

    As for JavaScript +CSS=HTML5 vs. ActionScript, what is the point? You can use Adobe Flash Builder to export to each device natively (app vs. HTML) and development is fast and can bring in both ActionScript and MXML. ActionScript is a Loooonnng way from being dead for this reason.

    See this very important video on the network, the rise of apps, the death of the world wide web as we know it and the truth about the “cloud”:

    http://labs.visual-analytics.net/?p=543

  • http://stewartmilleronline.com Randy Miller

    Just a couple of weeks after Flash was supposed to be dead (according to the ill advised commuicators at Adobe) Flash player 11 became a big part of Unity 3D’s tool set.

    Flash Player 11 is about 15 years ahead of HTML5. Dugh… because Flash has not been static and nor is it static now. For every advancement of HTML, Flash is already a light year ahead. Sorry. But nothing remains static and the socialists in the HTML camp hate that fact.

    http://www.flashstreamworks.com/2011/09/02/amazing-demo-of-unity-3d-and-flash-player-11/

    Not porting Flash 11 to devices also presumes that devices remain static and they are not. They are doubling in CPU and storage yearly. Adobe clearly screwed up with their annoucement that Flash had no place on devices and would remain a desktop feature. The device of late 2012 or early 2013 will play anything you throw at it. The question should be whether or not management af Adobe should be layed off not the flash team they layed off. Unless Adobe and Microsoft have some hidden buyout agreement about to take place [like Adobe and Macromedia did] then I don’t understand why Flash would be dissed in any shape or form. I know Microsoft did the same thing with their Silverlight but Silverlight did not have anywhere near the peneatration of Flash. Flash was part of every government desk top configuration even. A feat that does not come easily as any software company will tell you. It was just bad management at Adobe that does not understand their own software eco system development over the past 15 years and what they had obtained in the marketplace. As soon as Adobe made their annoucement less educated stake holders started dumping Flash development and may even dump Flash Player on the desktop as well, because they don’t understand what is going on. It was a very Coke moment at Adobe a few months ago. Very poor communication. Perhaps it is because of the Indian management now populating Adobe just doesn’t understand their American end uers and what Adobe obtained in the last 20 years. I am not understanding how Adobe is going forward with all their product integration either. Photoshop, Premiere Pro, Flash Pro and Flash Builder. What is Adobe doing? I would just like to know.

  • playtester

    Problem: Javascript is unsafe for application logic but safe for changing colors of menus… If you want security in your application then you must avoid Javascript as much as possible. You can leave only the presentation code to the client. But if the presentation code is the strong card of your application (say you build your game engine) then you are still unsafe, you must send the presentation code to the server again. Either way, more or lesser, if you need a bit of “security” then you must avoid a bit of “javascript”, in the end you only have a dump HTML5 (just like dump terminals) where it is a sitting duck.

    So you might wonder why I will not use HTML5?
    (Read only if you wonder :P)
    Personally, I don’t consider my web application projects to be “open”, the strategic planning of my company is not based on “openness”, it is based on strict, secure, and critical mission web applications. That is static compiled binary applications with encrypted server communication. For me, the essence of HTML5 is HyperTextMarkupLanguage5, that means to display information in the web page and have some interaction with Javascript (jQuery).

    HTML5 is capable, I agree that it have plenty of potential and power. I have seen that technically you can do everything and technically HTML5 overshadows Flash, Silverlight and other RIAs. HTML5 is the only time in history of Web that I can call it a standard. Previous versions were a nightmare to use, so in this case HTML5 is an essential evolution of the Web standard. Why is this? You can use a modern, stable, standard and popular technology. Additionally you can have some extra benefits (super fast Javascript, WebGL, media playback, e.t.c.).

  • Ali N.

    To make it short:

    “The right tool for the right job.”

    1. Flash/Flex for Games & Apps development.

    2. HTML5/CSS3/JS for Web development.

    One thing I wonder is: HD (Streaming) Video & Audio. Any possibilities in HTML5 & Co.?

    • shan

      I think order should be

      1.) Flash/Flex for Games & Web development.
      2.) HTML5/CSS3/JS for Apps development.

      Still We live in Flash world it will take few more years for HTML 5.Meantime if Ipad and Iphone will support FLASH somehow, we dont need HTML 5.May be we can use FLASH to HTML5 converter.For now I stuck with FLASH but we all like to have RIA experience without thirdparty plugn(Flash Player).

  • jonnymnemonic

    unfortunately, our clients don’t respect that it’s our developers role to decide which tool is best for the job. they don’t know what it is or why they want it. they just know what they want. and that’s their tool to be built in html5 and not flash

    • jonnymnemonic

      to be fair, i use some html css and some javascript to get my flash to work better for different occasions. but the main tech doing 98% of the work in all my projects has always been flash. moving over to html5 for the sake of supporting the demands of mindless clients who followed steve jobs like some women follow oprah has been severely underwhelming. watching html5 conferences and presentations in 2012 with html developers spraying their shorts over what they can now do with html/css/javascript over finally being able to compete with what flash devleopers were able to do in 2005

  • :dna

    funny is how everybody are talking so official… and careful and to be honest 90% just developers… fine. And how about designers the front line guys criticized every day by every “creative” client and manager because they don`t understand programming but can say I don`t like green and dots :) … and than … why is not glowing and spot on and trendy and HTML5 ? And the animation is just rubbish… ? For developer in the 90% of reality means – I don`t mind give me instruction what that thing have to do and what he can easily say it is not possible or lazy :)) to do. Dot. For designer – in the flash environment in the comparison of editing animations for HTML5 in spritesheets ? I was doing this crap on 8bit C64! And not in 21 century !? And who ever is explaining this like a cool move… it is just best marketing ever started by Steve and etc… with own opinion and “strategy” … but in the fact :) In the corporate area – where in the bank will run script ? Or any other bigger business for safety reasons was flash more elegant solution ( I don`t take this crap about safety and performance anymore) and 95% on every computer … hmm not to mention about vector graphics and editor it self… :)) So for programmer – just changed syntax and style – for designer and his colorful managers/clients imagination just hell on earth :)) … not to mention about production time pain and no flexibility in html f`in 5 … sorry to disturb with my unprofessional designers cries